Baz Chapman: Emily, perhaps I can start by asking you just to tell me a little bit about Sutton Music Trust. Emily Murphy: Okay, so. Sutton Music Trust, here our aim really is to help every young person in the London Borough of Sutton to be inspired by and celebrate the music that they love. So we are committed to making a difference to the lives of the young people through music. We deliver a wide range of services, anything from our whole class ensemble tuition to peripatetic lessons. We have music academies and we have our ensembles, borough choirs and orchestras and autistic youth choir as well. So that's kind of the aim we offer like I said a range of musical activities throughout the London Borough of Sutton. Baz Chapman: Great, and just tell me a little bit about your role. Emily Murphy: My role, I am the Senior Vocal Curriculum Leader for Sutton Music Trust. So I'm responsible for anything related to singing. I coordinate all of the large scale vocal projects in Sutton. I obviously line manage all of the vocal tutors, recruitment, all of that kind of thing. Get people into schools, delivering one-to-one peripatetic lessons and in-school choirs. And then I'm responsible for the borough choirs - all of those up which Nat now conducts and overseeing all of that work, developing partnerships and just trying to provide as many opportunities as possible for young people to engage in high quality singing provision in Sutton. Baz Chapman: Great, thank you. Nat, tell me a bit about your singing leadership work. Nat Vesty: Sure, so I run a number of singing groups as a musical director, choir leader, whatever the title is, it tends to change depending on the type of group. But I'm a freelance choral conductor and I've got several adult choirs of different types, community level, auditioned level. And as Emily's mentioned, I conduct the Borough choirs for Sutton Music Trust. So we have Sutton Songbirds for five to eight year olds. We have Sutton Young Singers for 8 to 13 year olds and we have Sutton Youth Choir for 13 and up, the Autistic Youth Choir. I also conduct some school choirs at local schools and I'm freelance singing teacher as well so I work for Sutton Music Trust and I work for myself as well so lots of very varied singing projects but all singing related. Baz Chapman: Great, thank you. So tell me about the Autistic Youth Choir, how did it come about? Nat Vesty: Shall I take this one, Emily? Emily Murphy: That's an interesting one. I was trying to remember actually the year. Yeah, I was trying to remember which year it was that we, you know, Gareth kind of said, it'd be great for us to have an autistic youth choir. Your memory is probably better than mine, that. Nat Vesty: Yeah, I feel like you might have been on maternity leave at the time or maybe you just come back, I can't remember. basically it came about because a couple of things that happened and I think it just sort of flicked a switch really as an idea. But one thing was that just I used to be in the leadership team for Sutton Music Trust and one of my projects was to be an autism champion. And I had a conversation with the autism team at Sutton Cognos which is the company that owned Sutton Music Trust at the time and I was getting roped into things that were very education based and because that's not my background my background is obviously the music I felt a little bit sort of overwhelmed by the education speak - that's not really my field. And I kind of thought, what am I bringing value to this role? How can I bring value to this role? And I had a conversation where I kind of just basically owned up and said, I don't know very much about this educational stuff that you're talking about, but I know about music and I wonder if I can bring my skills to that rather than you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, if I can just sort of create something out of it. I think the other thing that I was thinking at the time is I was working more and more in schools and I was coming across more more children with special educational needs and I'd noticed and I'm sure Emily notices this all the time as well, that music is an incredible leveler of a playing field for children where I think they really struggle in some educational systems or they're not set up to support them. But at choir? A lot of the time they seem to just settle in and children are children. So I think for me, I know that obviously this didn't just come out from my side, but for me that was kind of the click. That was when I was like, these two things could work together really nicely. Emily Murphy: And I think that as you know, Sutton Music Trust generally, we were very much at the beginning of our journey in terms of our inclusion strategy. It was something that we'd started looking at and started putting together and piecing it together and thinking, well, what provision have we actually got? You know, we were really keen to make sure that our singing strategy was diverse and inclusive and that we were providing opportunities for all children, young people to access this high quality vocal provision, regardless of any of the barriers that they face. So I think it was kind of developing that inclusion strategy alongside Nat, like I said, Nat said her own words, wanting to go on this journey and get more of the education side in. The idea of the Autistic Youth Choir came about to offer that opportunity for autistic singers aged 8 to 13 years to come and sing with us. Baz Chapman: So, autism, it's interesting because autism manifests itself in different ways and to varying degrees with the different individuals, particularly around the of the sensory experience aspects of it. So how do you find a common ground with that sort of age range and different ways that the autism influences sort of who they are and how they go about activities? Emily Murphy: I think Nat worked really closely with the autism team, didn't you, at Cognos, and they really helped support you to find a way to support the children best and to offer the best kind of experience for them. So maybe Nat can tell us a bit about that. Nat Vesty: Yeah, I mean, when you talk about sensory, I'm kind of thinking this like this kind of two lines of thought that I'm being taken down. So I'll kind of go through each of them if that's all right. I think one thing is sensory toys is part of the adjustments that have been made in the sessions. So you could see the sensory aspects as something they do to take a break when they feel overloaded or there are planned breaks where they can go and do sensory activities. So we have some fidget toys, we have some things that they can walk on, some sensory things, some things that they can touch and feel. But something that I did notice as the sessions went on is that some of the children were getting quite lots of sensory feedback from singing. Also from playing the piano, which becomes a bit of a thing that a lot of them like to do in the break. For example, there's one girl and you can tell that she's really getting feedback from the piano because she loves sort of like putting her hands down in different ways and making sort of clusters of chords. And you can tell she's really getting something out of it. And then there were other children that liked to walk across the sensory objects that we have in the room. So it is very diverse and it's definitely, for me, was like each individual child learning what was working for them, how you can depressurise a situation or the things that they need to get the best out of the situation. And that could be the sensory breaks or it could be the sensory of the singing and making music itself. Baz Chapman: And what kind of stuff do you sing? Nat Vesty: We sing a mix of things really. mean if I talk about what they've been doing this term... We do use a lot of Sing Up resources. They're very, very useful. So some pop music, but we do stuff from like musical theatre. To be honest, if the children bring an idea, I tend to sort of weave it into the session because I find that the group will definitely have songs that are their favourites and that can be a calming thing for them to sing something that they know and like. We have brought some Christmas songs in for the Christmas term. So they're doing a concert next week, just an informal concert in their usual rehearsal space and they're singing sort of half Sing Up sort of uplifting songs and then half Christmas. I think one thing I do bear in mind because that seems to work really well and is about stuff about self-belief, stuff about being proud of yourself that seems to resonate really well as a topic for them so I tend to keep the music quite positive, upbeat, about believing in yourself, about being the best you can be and they seem to love the message in that music so I'm really careful about the message in the music because I think that means a lot to them. Baz Chapman: Yes. So what about the actual approach of rehearsals? I don't even know if that's the right kind of word, but you know, when you bring them together, is it quite different from how you organise sessions with your other choirs? Nat Vesty: It's not hugely different, there are just some things that... have been put in place that have to be there that you could probably guess away with not doing with other groups. So the way I structure my sessions is pretty similar to how I would do a normal choir rehearsal in that they have a warmup, they have a little break, but they may have a longer break or more breaks. They have music practice sessions, know, five minute, 10 minute block of a song. They'll have a singing game and then maybe another music block. Couple of things that are slightly different are they know the structure of the session and it doesn't change. So I don't suddenly decide they've got to get ready for this concert, I'm gonna push them and I'm gonna throw everything out the window and they're just gonna do music practice for an hour because that will not get the result because it's too much change. So they have a schedule that they're shown at the beginning of a session to say how long we're gonna spend on each thing. different child to read off the board because that's another thing they quite like doing and how long are we going to spend and I try to stick to it as much as possible. and one of the things that's a bit different as well is I get them to talk about their day at the beginning of the session when we're settling in it's tell me something that you want to talk about this week and that gets them used to the verbal communication which some of them find easier than others and some of them bring a pre-prepared thing that they will read, some of them will speak you know off by heart but I think that's important because then they're bonding as a group and they kind of know that that's the precursor to the session starting as well. Emily Murphy: It should also be said this is obviously quite a small group. At the moment, think we've got six children, young people. Yeah, about six. So it is a small group. As Nat's alluded to, we haven't gone down the route of putting them under pressure and saying, you're singing in an end of term concert and you're singing in this and you're singing this big thing. Nat's done kind of little end of term performances, but it's been to the parents and it's been very informal, very relaxed, very, you know, and then if anyone feels that they're not Nat Vesty: Yes. Yeah. Emily Murphy: they don't want to be part of that then they don't have to be there's no pressure there and that at the beginning of when you first started the choir you had someone from the autism team at Cognos in with you didn't you to support the sessions Nat Vesty: Yes, yeah. Baz Chapman: Let just ask a bit about what you've noticed about the benefits of the work or what started happening for some of those young people, bearing in mind also that many choirs have autistic people who are their members. So it's not as if it's impossible to join a mainstream group, but just how have you found or how has it matched your expectations, what it would be? Nat Vesty: the thing that I learned most in my experience is that when you've met an autistic child, you've met one autistic child. So when the group first started singing there were a lot of curveballs that were thrown so for example there might be one child she would get very anxious if I didn't follow the schedule. I have to follow the schedule. So I learned that with this child I have to follow the schedule. If she's not there I may get away with being a little bit more flexible but I must remember this, there is one child that has to have a certain warmup and if that warmup doesn't happen, then I'm gonna get some negative behavior. So I kind of know that that's something. There would be a child that didn't want to take part in the session at all and would spend the session at the back of the room interacting with the sensory toys. And we just tried to make sure that he was safely doing that. But then over many weeks, I saw all of them start to engage more in the session. So some were not engaged at all. Some were completely engaged from the beginning, but you'd get even the child at the back of the room who's not, doesn't seem to be doing anything that's to do with the music, would suddenly like a certain activity and start hovering. And then maybe the next week he might sit down, but only for two minutes. And it was just that sort of progression over time that they start. And for me, it's like, there's no pressure at all. If you don't want to be part of the session, you don't have to. not gonna kind of, I might encourage them say, do you want to come and sit down? But I'll never say that they have to because they may be in, they might be uncomfortable. And I find that they actually start to become curious over time. And now what we have is a very settled group because I know them, they know me, they know exactly what's going to happen, they know they're in a safe place. So I think it's that patience really that they learn to trust you and they learn to feel safe in that space and they know the drill and you're not going to let them down by betraying what they know if that makes sense. Baz Chapman (15:17) Yeah, well, and I mean, you've mentioned all of the kind of the, I suppose, the key ingredients that you're after, there's happiness, there's trust, there's safety, there's engagement, but they're not being pressured to do anything in particular. So I would imagine on the whole, you're pretty pleased with how it's going. Emily Murphy: I am, I'm sure Nat's done fantastic job and I mean it's been a great success and we do, I find from my perspective we will now get people approaching us and asking us and we have had emails about ⁓ you've got an autistic youth choir and we're interested to know more and we're interested so that's fantastic from our point of view and it's great that we now have that offer. I suppose now we're like how do we grow that because as we've alluded It's very small group at the moment. They're very comfortable with that. They're very confident. They feel safe in that environment. And there is the concern of, you know, if you open it out to too many children, do you lose that environment? And does that throw the balance and throw the group off? So we've to be really careful about kind of our next steps with the group. But yeah, but it has been a fantastic success. And yeah, so well done, Nat. Nat Vesty: I just was gonna add something Emily said, just something that I have noticed as well with the young people sometimes, but because they're a small group it's low level and it's easy to deal with. Because autistic children are so diverse, sometimes the behaviour of one autistic child and what works for one autistic child actually triggers another. So for example, I have one boy who he's so enthusiastic, but he's not great verbally, but he will sing to himself while we're doing the chat about your day. And this girl will say, and I would go, Sylvester, we're listening now and try and encourage him, but he might carry on doing that because that's him stimming probably. And the girl will get irritated because she can't hear. So I think that's the concern that if you suddenly make that group much, much bigger, you're going to get those little counter actions between the students where do you have enough adults to diffuse that? Do you have enough adults to take one of them away to somewhere where they feel safe? So yeah, it's just a consideration. Baz Chapman: Yeah, certainly. mean, there's quite often, I think for people, a little bit of trepidation about embarking on something like this, because you probably think, know, gosh, have I got the, do I have the skills and the knowledge to be able to do this? So tell me a bit about the sort of the partnership that you've got in place, that was around setting it up in the first place, but what sort of support do you have access to? Emily Murphy: I think we were probably lucky because as Nat said, we were part of Cognos and part of that kind of wider structure. So we have access to different teams who have specialisms. So we had an autism team that we could contact in there. And I know that Nat had a lot of meetings and some training really through them. It was on the job though. We did kind of throw her in the deep end. We're like, off you go. But that support, that structure was there. So we were lucky that we had access to that. And as I said, someone from the autism team was there at the session supporting that. And we also have an accompanist there who's very good with supporting rehearsals. Maybe you want to tell us a bit more about that. Nat Vesty: Yeah, so the accompanist I've worked with because he accompanies the other children and youth choirs in Sutton Music Trust, but had been working, I think probably still does, with a lot of SEN schools, doing piano teaching and things like that, and was quite familiar with difficult behaviour, which could be violent behaviour as well, depending on the environment. So he's particularly calming influence. think what's quite lovely actually is the children have really taken to him because he can, he really finds their interests. So for example, he's got a skill where he can play pretty much any Disney song or computer game music that you ask him to play. So if they want to hear Sonic, he will play them Sonic and that really, really captures the imagination of some of the children. Or he'll just do whatever they say. They say, Andy play it faster, play it with a harpsichord, play it with strings and he'll just change the little voices on the keyboard and it just makes them feel like they're in control of things and it feels collaborative. We're never sort of telling them how it's going to be and we're always happy to kind of, if a session's not quite going and they seem a bit disinterested but we know that there might be something that captures them back, we will kind of work with them and I think that's what's worked really well with Andy. He's just able to adapt to what they want to do and he's very patient with them as well and very calming. Baz Chapman: So you mentioned about that, am I right in thinking that you're all connected with the same local authority structure? Is that right? Emily Murphy: Not the local authority structure, no. So we come under the umbrella of Cognos, who offer lots of different educational services. we, sorry, we're in the process of change again. So we were part of that structure. We were the music hub, the music service under that umbrella. But now we've become a charity. So we're kind of stepping away again. And now we're some music trust. We still, we're still using their offices and still have access to those resources but the links become a little bit more tenuous. Baz Chapman So what's the sort of relationship in terms of things like data or referrals? Does it kind of work at that level on the individual's journey? Emily Murphy: Not that I'm aware of. when... Did you get... I think a couple of the children may have been referred from the autism service, were they not, when you first set it up, when we first started. I can't really remember. Nat Vesty: Possibly, one thing that happened which may have resulted in a member joining also is there were some autism surgeries where parents kind of come to them to ask for advice and I was doing a couple of those surgeries with a colleague and did recommend and we may have got one or two possibly at the beginning. Baz Chapman: Yeah, okay. All right. And to finish, I'd like to ask both of you actually, if what what advice you might give, perhaps Emily, if you start in terms of other organisations who are thinking, I might be quite interested in setting this up, what would be your tips for them? Emily Murphy: I guess have no fear. You know, just if you see that there's a gap in your provision and you want to do something about it, you know you should do something about it, then have no fear, just do it. The second thing is, I guess, make sure that you've got the staff that are willing to go on that journey with you and to take that leap of faith, regardless of their experience. And then if you can draw on the experience of other partnerships, like I said, we were very lucky that we had the autism service. Us as part of Cognos and we could draw on the expertise to support Nat, especially when we were setting the choir up. That would probably be my top three. Baz Chapman: That's great. Thanks so many. And what about more from a sort of practitioner singing leader point of view, what would be your tips? Nat Vesty: I would probably go back to something I said earlier which is if you've met an autistic child you've met one autistic child. So what works in my sessions might not work for everyone but I did learn as I went and I did make lots of mistakes and I did upset a lot of children along the way by making mistakes but... Each time you make that mistake, you learn something that you can put into the session. it's all about, I think, making that bespoke session and just being really open-minded. And I think if you have a session and I think it's kind of being very reflective and just going, is everything working in these sessions? Is there anything that we need to change? Because if there is, you'll know about it fairly quickly, but you can then adapt it. It's working to the group that's in front of you, not the group that you imagined that you would have. I think that would be my biggest thing. Baz Chapman: That's fantastic.